East London Line Clapham Junction service delayed

Leela: I don't know what you did, Fry, but once again, you screwed up! Now all the planets are gonna start cracking wise about our mamas.
Hermes: I'm just glad my fat, ugly mama isn't alive to see this day.
Farnsworth: Enough about your promiscuous mother, Hermes! We have bigger problems.

This is Lou Baker's hour. Brockley Central's resident ELL refusenik will be glad to learn that a train he doesn't use will not start running to a place he doesn't want to go, for a few months later than originally hoped.

London Reconnections reports a statement from TfL, which says that the service to Clapham Junction won't start before the end of 2012:

We are delighted that funding for the London Overground extension to Clapham Junction has been reconfirmed following the Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR) announcement. Although early projections indicated that the project would be complete by May 2012, it has never been a part of the Olympic transport plans.

The timescales for the project were pushed back pending the outcome of the Government's CSR. We have also had to take account of the restrictions on construction work being carried out before and during the Olympic and Paralympic Games, which have also affected the programme. We now anticipate that the project will be completed by the end of 2012.

Thanks to Mike.

28 comments:

Tim said...

That's a shame. In the meantime, will we still have that line that runs to Victoria, from London Bridge. I seem to recall that was going to get shut down at some point?

Tim said...

PS, will have to amend plan to find a girlfriend in the Clapham High Street area in mid 2012.

Brockley said...

Is this site becoming an ELL update site ????.

Brockley said...

Is this site becoming an ELL update site ????.

Lou Baker said...

I'm so proud to be mentioned by name in a post. The local legend that is me...,,

Anyway this is actually one bit of the ELL I might use.

But I have two objections to phase 2 of the project as planned.

1) it removes all central London services from two stations - Clapham HS and Wandsworth Rd, which is very bad for those areas. They used to have four trains to central
London per hour, they'll soon have none. And while monkeyface and others will say 'change' that'll significantly lengthen journey times, particularly to Victoria.


2) they're not building stations at Brixton and Loughborough
Junction which would make excellent interchanges - something sadly lacking on the ELL.

Tommo said...

It's a reasonable point Lou makes about Brixton. An interchange there would have been one of the most heavy used on that part of the line.

The point about Clapham High Street isn't true though. At present, Clapham High Street only has 2 trains per hour, even at peak times. I lived round the corner from Clapham High St/Clapham North for a year and didn't use the rail station once. It was always quicker to use the tube from Clapham North to travel into central London. A 4 train per hour service to Canada Water and Clapham Junction would have been genuinely useful though and the ELL extension will provide this.

It seems Lou doesn't understand the benefits of radial routes in cities such as London. Not everyone wants to travel into the city centre. Radial routes such as the ELL take the pressure off terminuses such as London Bridge, Waterloo and Victoria.

Cheer Up Lou, At Least You're Not French said...

".....a reasonable point Lou makes...." *spits tea over PC*

"....It seems Lou doesn't understand....." *normal service resumes*

Matt-Z said...

Lou if we get the Victoria - Bellingham/Bromley South service then Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road's London service will be saved. There are other proposals which would give them a similar service, but Crofton Park would't see any benefit.

Platforms at Brixton and Loughborough Junction would be great but would add £100 million on to the scheme as an absolute minimum. When cash is tight and £10 million can't be found for Surrey Canal Road, there's little hope of funding the others at the moment. That's not to say it couldn't be done at a later date, especially Brixton, but Lambeth have been fairly quiet on the issue.

Lou Baker said...

@tommo

The point I make is true. There are four trains per hour to central London from Clapham and Wandsworth - two to Victoria, two to London Bridge. And one of the reasons the service is, comparatively, lightly used is precisely because the service is so infrequent. So extra trains are a bonus but not if they don't go to the right places.

Matt-Z is wrong - plans to mitigate this loss by introducing a Victoria-Bellingham service have been scrapped as part of the dodgy deal between TFL and the DFT to get the project funded.

As for radial routes - I do think they're a great idea. But not if they don't properly connect with the rest of the network. And phase 2, like phase 1, doesn't properly connect with the rest if the network. This is its biggest flaw. A station at Brixton would seriously mitigate this and is far cheaper to build now than later.

Tommo said...

I'd say that connecting the UK's busiest railway station (in terms of number of trains) and London's busiest tube line (the Northern line at Clapham North/High St) with Canada Water (the next tube stop along from Canary Wharf), is properly connecting to the rest of the network.

Fair point about Brixton but the cash isn't exactly plentiful at the moment.

Anonymous said...

Yes, it's cheaper now. There is no money now. A man with lou's grip on financial matters should know that

Mb said...

Are we looking at two different maps? How does connecting at canada water and eventually crossrail at White chapel "not connect properly".

Brockley Nick said...

Lou's map of London is a picture of his house surrounded by a black circle labelled "everything is crap" and the Kings Road as a shining beacon in the darkness.

Re: connections, let's not forget the District Line and the DLR.

Pity no direct link with the Central Line, but it's a short walk to Liverpool Street.

THNick said...

I'm not sure an interchange at Loughborough junction would be of great advantage - you will be able to change to the Thameslink at Denmark hill anyway. Brixton would be good but as above, presumably v expensive.

Danja said...

Or a quick change at Whitechapel onto the Metropolitan. It's that "it's a network not a single line" point again. Permanently beyond grasp.

Brockley Economist said...

I agree with Lou - the overground network does not have enough connections with the tube to maximise its potential. As a result and due to the service reductions that are accompanying the extension. Some users are losers. Having said that, I'm a definite winner (commute to bond street).


Talking of which, tfl has done no proper cost benefit analysis to look at the priority these connections should take over other projects e.g. the pie in the sky Chelsea to Hackney line, or even other stations on the overground network receiving upgrades. It is sloppy policy making.

@Tommo - "It seems Lou doesn't understand the benefits of radial
routes in cities such as London. Not everyone wants to travel into the city centre." Radial = adjectival form of radius, i.e. a line linking the centre of a circle and its circumference - what do you mean? The ELL is not radial - that's Lou's point surely.

@Danja - Whitechapel isn't on the Metropolitan.

Danja said...

Err yes, I meant the Hammersmith & City.

Mb said...

"Talking of which, tfl has done no proper cost benefit analysis to look at the priority these connections should take over other projects" how do you know?

As to not having enough connections, compared to what? Compared to a mythical line that was never planned?

Matt-Z said...

Lou - no final decision has been made about the South London Line replacement. We could yet see a Victoria to Bellingham service, calling at Crofton Park. Alternatively other semi-fast services would call additionally at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street.

Detailed analysis by London Reconnections, who know what they're talking about, here:

http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/search/label/south%20london%20line

Brockley Economist's secret admirer said...

Brockley Economist speaks sense once again.

You mean orbital not radial.

I am surprised that the cost of interchange stations is not deemed to be worth it. An interchange to the Victoria would be v useful - Lou's point that orbital lines like ELL need to link to radial ones for best effect. I am guessing the rationale is as much about not wanting to add extra demand to the Victoria (like the reason given for not having a proper ELL-Central interchange at Shoreditch). Which seems perverse to me, like saying we can't have an interchange because people might want to use it....

Anyway, it'll be a useful extra piece of the joigsaw when it happens, though going up to Surrey Quays only to go south again will be annoying.

Brockley Nick said...

The relative lack of connections is the fault of East London generally, rather than the line specifically. There are simply fewer lines to connect with in the east than there would be in the west. But that is precisely the imbalance that the ELL is trying to address.

By next month, the ELL will connect with the Jubilee, the DLR, District, Hammersmith and City, and the Victoria line, not to mention all the overland rail services. In five years, it will also link up with Crossrail. Six new sets of connections for Brockley residents in total.

Most people would say that was a good thing...

Brockley Economist's secret admirer said...

And I'm one of those 'most people' who say it's a good thing. I'd just like a Central line interchange too. And maybe a Brixton interchange to the Victoria, though I'm less bothered about that as it probably wouldn't be the quickest way to get from Brockley to Victoria anyway.

Mb said...

"I am surprised that the cost of interchange stations is not deemed to be worth it."

Yes extra connections would be great. How much should we invest? Remembering that there is an entire network that is creaking and needs millions to cope with the expected increase in traffic. The picadilly line upgrade has been deferred, a major casualty of the PPP collapse, bank station needs major work, the sub surface railway needs it's signalling completely renewed, the rolling stock is clapped out and needs replacing etc, etc.... The ELL was a relative bargain and done quickly, Interconnections cost.

BESA said...

Crossrail is getting lots of new interchange stations, whereas omitting a Central line interchange for the ELL leaves it looking a bit like a poorer sister.

As I say I suspect this at least partly about limiting demand as much as cost.

Simpleton said...

@ Brockley Economist's secret admirer said...

Why go to Surrey Quays? Crofton Park (or Nunhead) to Denmark Hill; Denmark Hill to Clapham... there is life beyond the ELL much though Nick doesn't want anyone to believe it.

David M said...

Just to point out that this won't bring any time saving benefit on the journey from Brockley to Clapham Junction (currently around 30m direct via Crystal Palace). 6mBrockley-SurreyQ + 23SurreyQ-ClaphamJ + interchange (over bridge) = >30m

Brockley Nick said...

David M - sure, if you are happy to wait around for an infrequent service via CP and it runs reliably, then no, there is no advantage. Personally, I think that I would choose the ELL2 every time.

Mb said...

Besa, the ell cost less than £1bn. Crossrail is £16bn. They are both railways but its pointless trying to compare the two in any detail, they are not equivalent.

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